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Query re purchases of arms by the ZAR post Jameson Raid. 10 months 1 week ago #94033

  • Neville_C
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I don't think it is unusual for armaments companies to sell their goods to countries that are potential future adversaries. Unless sanctions are in place, there is nothing to stop them selling to whomever flashes the cash.

That being said, as relations between England and the ZAR soured, Vickers Sons & Maxim appear to have made half-hearted efforts to distance themselves from their dealings with Joubert. They did this in two ways: firstly by trading through agents, Messrs Hill & Paddon; and secondly by removing their headstamps from supplied ammunition. Most Boer pom-pom rounds are unmarked, whereas British cartridges always carry the "VSM" headstamp. This signalled a shift in the manufacturer's policy, as the earliest ZAR shipments (pre-Oct 1897 Vickers/Maxim merger) had been clearly stamped with the Maxim-Nordenfelt monogram. The change appears to have been made in response to the deteriorating diplomatic situation. SEE Artillery and Ammunition

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Query re purchases of arms by the ZAR post Jameson Raid. 10 months 1 week ago #94034

  • Dave F
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British Small Arms sold its ammunition business in 1897 to Birmingham Metal and Munitions Company Limited, part of the Nobel-Dynamite Trust, through Kynoch.

Attached link for interested forum members ref 1890 to 1903.
www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/KOtherInformationKynochV2A.htm
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Query re purchases of arms by the ZAR post Jameson Raid. 10 months 1 week ago #94035

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You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.
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Dave
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Query re purchases of arms by the ZAR post Jameson Raid. 10 months 1 week ago #94036

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Information taken from the Birmingham History Forum.

George Kynoch (1834-1891): Part 3 Final, (1877-1901)

In 1884 George Kynoch and Co became a limited company with George Kynoch remaining as the Managing Director with salary of £500 a year, he received £60,000 in cash, £10,000 in preference shares and £40,000 in ordinary shares. It is at this point that he probably moved to Hamstead Hall. Also in this year there is an entry in Kelly's Directory showing that as well as the Lion Works at Witton, Kynoch's have a depot in Whittall Street, where the 1859 explosion took place.

It is said that George Kynoch lived in great style at Hamstead Hall, and became president of Aston Villa Football Club. In 1886 he was elected Conservative MP for Aston Manor, and at an obviously staged celebration, from his carriage he had the cheek to lecture to the crowd...

...Gladstone had ignored his experienced friends, but he had consulted with men who were well known to be friends of assassins, and also, according to a report which he had seen, the accuracy of which he had no reason to question, falling in with the views of the American Fenian party. When they found this sort of thing going on it was time for every honest Englishman to speak out and remove effectually from power one who would had used his influence so perniciously against the welfare of this country. They were many questions which required dealing with before the Irish question. He should ask Parliament to consider what could be done to prevent the falling off in trade in England. That was the justice he wanted for England. Ireland could wait.

(He also proclaimed, during his canvassing, that if the Ulstermen rebel against Home Rule he would give then 10,000 riles and 2,000,000 rounds of ammunition...no doubt using the money raised from arms sales to the Fenians!)

After the first year of the Limited Company things began to go wrong and in March 1887 a Government contract for 10,000,000 cartridges from 1885, is rejected 20% being defective due to inferior workmanship. Pressure built on George Kynoch to resign, and he did so in October 1888 siting ill-health.

ODNB says "He himself, by then a very sick man, left England for South Africa in 1890. He died in comparative poverty at Johannesburg, on 28 February 1891, and was buried there the following month."

This is incorrect according to the report of his death in March 1901. In the November 1898, he went to South Africa, where he obtained special concessions from the Transvaal Government in respect of the introduction and manufacture of arms and ammunition. He also occupied himself wth various enterprises in the gold mining industry. Early last year (1890) his effects at Hamstead Hall were sold, along with founding shares in Kynoch's. His last occupation was said to be as a storekeeper selling guns and ammunition in Johannesburg.

George Kynoch had not resigned as an MP and in February 1890 at Aston Liberal meeting the Chair said those who had read the Daily Post would have seen a great deal said about George Kynoch from Aston...Mr Kynoch was enjoying himself in Joberg. It was a great thing for Mr Kynoch to have MP after his name, and he for one would never believe he would come back to Aston until someone had seen him in the Manor...Kynoch was disgusting a lot of people, and the more he disgusted the better for the Liberals...instead of protesting against him they should give him a vote of thanks... the next best thing to having a Liberal MP was having the worst possible Tory member.

The Conservatives regretted the continued absence of Kynoch and his lengthened stay in South Africa practically disenfranchised the borough...he had not written to explain...two unofficial letters had been published which had said he hoped to be back for the opening of the Parliamentry session.

March 1890 in the house it was noted he had been away 18 months, since November 1888, and for some months new he would not recover from illness. From Mrs Kynoch we learn that on the 16 May last (1890) he took his passage to return, but was detained by litigation concerning some mines in which he was interested. He again tried in September but internal cancer eventually caused his death. There was a great deal of sympathy in Aston for Mrs Kynoch.

It is really a sad story that so many should suffer in the production of articles, that in themselves, would inflict suffering on others. In respect of the poor souls that lie in Witton Cemetery the beginnings of Kynoch's cannot be glorified, but Kynoch's went on and in September 1900 Lloyd George says "it should not be called Kynoch as the Chamberlain family have £150,000 in shares
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Query re purchases of arms by the ZAR post Jameson Raid. 10 months 1 week ago #94038

  • Smethwick
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Having spent my formative years living on the edge of Birmingham when a trip to the City Centre had the eyes of a young lad popping at the sight of the awe inspiring civic Victorian buildings I do feel a need to write in defence of "Dirty" Joe. His benevolence to the citizens of the City was renowned and without "Father" Joe my eyes would not have been popping. He was a self made man and made his fortune out of screws. He had no time for the aristocracy and brought a breath of fresh air to British politics. I would agree looking back from the 21st Century his imperialistic attitudes do have to be questioned but I suspect if I had been born a hundred years earlier I would have agreed with them even if I don't now. Whether he could have prevented Birmingham firms from selling armaments to what was in effect a part of the British Empire and not an official enemy I very much doubt.

Regarding the superior but expensive Webley-Scott revolvers - you can find 1898 Newspaper adverts in which it is claimed they have just been used to re-arm "The Fleet".
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Query re purchases of arms by the ZAR post Jameson Raid. 10 months 1 week ago #94044

  • EFV
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Smethwick, I have no doubts Chamberlain was a benefactor to Birmingham and he will be differently regarded by the population of that town than by the average Boer. Just what I know about his role (with Milner, Rhodes and eventually Dr Jameson) in fanning the embers of the so called "uitlander"grievances into a war, his reputation is not clean. The ZAR and OVS were not part of the British Empire . At the time of the large ZAR arms purchases the territorial ambitions of the Empire were fully aligned with the financial ambitions of the "Goldbugs" and I don't think that there was anyone in power, both on the Boer and British side and least of all Chamberlain, who didn't expect this to come to a head one way or another. The purpose of this thread is to get opinions about how it was possible that, under those conditions, UK manufactured weapons were still being sold to the Boers. Chamberlain came into focus in this discussion because of the combination of his powerful political position, his scheming with Rhodes as well as his close relationship with Birmingham, a major arms producing town.
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