TOPIC:

This forum has an incredible amount of information, and I apologize if my questions have already been covered, it is just that there is so much info here I don't know where to start digging.

I've have been collecting for quite a while now, but honestly mainly for the esthetics and very high level history....let's face it the Military Cross is a beautiful decoration, and an unattributed example is just as pretty in the case as an attributed one....but a whole lot cheaper. And we can't all swing the cash around for a Crimean War medal to a confirmed "Charger". So everything I have is unresearched, to guys that weren't Officer's in the Coldstream Guards. I also started collecting back before the internet, and heard back then you needed to pay someone in England to go to the archives to do the research for you....now in the age of information it seems the info is more accessible, but just where to begin????

I recently purchased my first QSA/KSA pair and a KSA 5 bar. I found both soldiers names in the "Unit Information" and I have a photo copy of list with a bunch of names for the KSA. But other than that not much....

The QSA/KSA is impressed 5780 PTE H F JUDD 2ND DORSET REGT QSA, OFS, TRV, CC, KSA 01 & 02 of course.
The KSA is impressed 66446 T WRIGHT 86TH BTY RFA Bars are CC, OFS, TRV, LN, 01. This is not the 'official' correct order. The rivets appear different than the ones on my pair and the edge were the naming is appears to have been shaved down like a rename, but very well done, wouldn't notice except running the finger nail over the edge and noticing the lip isn't as pronounced. The seller Said the medal was sent to the depot and that Wright was discharged as "TofE" in Jan '02.

So where do I begin? I'd be really suspicious of the KSA with the different rivets and wrong bar order and apparent renaming...but I heard many of the medal were delivered with loose bars and if you were going to go to the trouble to fake a name....why would you fake a PVT in the artillery that clearly wasn't a casualty???

How do I determine if Wright was indeed entitled to all of those bars. How do I determine if Judd (QSA/KSA) survived? I also see "copy" bars on the internet....how does one tell a copy from an original if the copy has a patina? There always seems to be some subtle detail like....the serif on the top of the "S" should touch the top of the middle curve on the S.

Sorry for all the questions. Any help is greatly appreciated. Ultimately I'd like to research my other medals as well. In particular, I have an Egypt Medal with Nile clasp (The Gordon Relief has fascinated me for decades). The soldier was in the Royal Sussex regiment which was engaged at Abu Klea. He doesn't have that clasp, which would lead me to suspect one of four things...1) He should have the clasp, 2) He was a casualty before Abu Klea, or 3) He was one of 25 or so soldiers left behind to guard the regiment's kit at an oasis nearby. 4) He was part of 20 person advance scouting party lead by Lt. L. Trafford.

ksjhrs
I, too, came from the days when research on the medals I ran across here in OZ was only possible by finding a UK researcher who would dig up what was available (often, not much). Renamed medals then were widespread and so were the stories about them. Medal collecting and basic researching is much easier these days and some fascinating stories can be crafted about that latest find. As witness the pages on this site.
Regarding the KSA you mentioned which you think is renamed and bears the clasps CC/OFS/TV/LN. For starters, generally and with some exceptions, the Kings South Africa medal was not awarded bearing clasps other than one/other/both date clasps (SA1901 SA1902). Battle/engagement/State clasps were for the Queen's medal. Your man "6646 T. Wright, 86th Bty, RFA" is shown on the medal roll (WO100/143) for that battery as being entitled to the indicated clasps (CC/OFS/TV/LN) on his QSA. Marginal medal roll notes say "to Depot for discharge 3/1/01: Time expired". So it looks like he would have been entitled to an SA1901 clasp as well. It is quite possible on this site to look up basic medal and clasp entitlements for Boer War medals by going to the Research heading and scrolling down to information from the National Archives.
While the Gordon Relief expedition is rather outside the remit of this site, it is noted in the latest edition of British Battles and Medals that the Royal Sussex had 282 "Abu Klea" clasp entitlements and other entitlements for "The Nile" clasp. Looks like you need more research on that one.
For research purposes, I always recommend Kevin Asplin (see Contacts on the main menu) ; who does excellent work and quotes reasonable prices. I have asked him to do research for several years now.
Also, I would recommend you avail yourself of the 7th edition of British Battles and Medals (7th edition) for general research.
Good luck with your research.
IL.

ksjhrs

For the pair, these are awarded to Herbert Francis Judd. He was born in Winchfield, Aldershot, Hampshire in 1880. There are service papers for him available at cost on the FindMyPast website.

I am intrigued to see the KSA to Wright. It it possible to post a picture please? This can be added to your post as an attachment and needs to be less than 2,000 pixels in size in either dimension. Small .jpg files work best.

if you also send a picture of the naming, we can give you a view on that.

There are separate threads that help with:

1. Identifying copy clasps: www.angloboerwar.com/forum/5-medals-and-...clasps?start=0#10385
2. Identifying unofficial styles of naming: www.angloboerwar.com/forum/5-medals-and-...nd-ksas?start=0#8178

I cannot see any papers for Thomas Wright. Building on IL's post, his SA01 clasp is listed on WO100/143p255.



Kind regards
David

Question : - So where do I begin? I'd be really suspicious of the KSA with the different rivets and wrong bar order and apparent renaming...
If you were going to go to the trouble to fake a name....why would you fake a PVT in the artillery that clearly wasn't a casualty???

I couldn't find a medal roll pertaining to a Kings South Africa medal for Thomas Wright.
So, your suspicions are valid. As David has requested, if you could post a couple of images of the KSA? the forum could advise.


Question :- How do I determine if Wright was indeed entitled to all of those bars.
Medal rolls for Thomas, Queens South Africa.



Corporal Thomas Wright medal rolls QSA entitlement.

Part of Private Judd's attestation paper.

5780 Private Herbert Judd.


Part of his attestation paper with clasp entitlement. ( Also the paper provides additional clues with reference to his father and wife. All helpful for building up a backstory)

1911 census has him living in England with his wife and child as a boarder working in a hotel.
If you choose to research your recipients yourself, then it would be prudent to purchase a Ancestry or Find My Past subscription to suit your needs. Even better is to subscribe to both.
If you have the time and patience to research your subjects it is very rewarding when the story comes together. However, if you havn't got the time to trawl through reams of documents then employing a professional Genealogist or military specialist is the way to go.


Best regards

Dave

PS reference your other question. How do I determine if Herbert Judd (QSA/KSA) survived?
He did survive, he emigrated to Canada and joined the Canadian Expeditionary Force in WW1
He also had a few marriages, children and lived in Oregon during the 1940s.



I wish you well in your future research.

WOW!!!!!! Thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate the help. I'd also like to know how you did it so I could be helpful in the future too, instead of mooching on your generosity and knowledge.

I will try to attach some pictures shortly.

With respect to the suggested book "British Battles and Medals"; I see three listed with that title on Amazon, three different authors...1) Simpkin, 2) Bishop, 3) Gordon Which is the one you'd suggest?

Pictures of the QSA to CPL WRIGHT