TOPIC:

I was more confused by your use of the term "Regular" to describe ball, something I use in fast food retailers when giving an order for a coke!

QSAMIKE wrote: I would also be very interested in seeing this in print....

I have been offered a number of pieces over the years but passed them by as I did not have any information as you can see me calling the rounds as Dum Dum pieces....

Any knowledge helps.....

Mike

LinneyI wrote: Chaps
Thanks for the responses! I have made a bit of a study of ABW small arms ammunition types over the years and - if anyone is interested - I can do a couple of pix of unusual types and post them hopefully over this weekend.
Regards again.
IL.

Good Morning Frank.....

Just a generic term to tell the two apart.....

Mike

Hi all,

I must state up front that I am not an expert on ammunition, nor of all things military.

I recently returned from a "2nd Anglo-Boer War" tour, and I raised the controversial issue with various tour guides. Hence what follows are not my thoughts.

As I understand it, Great Britain had signed the Hague Convention shortly before 1899 banning the use of Dum Dum's etc. However, our colonies hadn't signed, and it has been suggested that the surplus Mk. 5 ammunition somehow found it's way into the ammunition pounches of our fellow colonial troops.

Secondly, it was quite easy for a soldier to create an expanding bullet by the use of a knife or a bayonet. The tip of the bullet could be scored and a slot created, causing the bullet to fragment. How common this practise was I cannot say, but I guess it was common knowledge amongst the soldiers of both sides.

War can be a very nasty business...

Dave

Dave and anyone else interested
GB had not immediately ratified the terms of the St. Petersburg and Hague Conventions re the use of "expanding" small arms ammunition; however it was considered that the .303" Mk.V round (as well as it's predecessors) would contravene the conventions. Sources indicate that the hollow nosed rounds (read .303" Mk.V) on issue in SA were withdrawn. Production of the Mk.V commenced in 10/99 and the type was declared obsolescent 1/03 with remaining stocks to be used up in practice.
It is possible that the SA colonies had somehow obtained Mk.V Ball rounds after they had been officially withdrawn and replaced by the Mk.II; reissuing them in contravention of expressed Imperial policy. I don't know and I would suspect that today, nobody knows for certain.
The only way to be reasonably certain about the use of the .303" Mk.V round would be to examine battlefield "pickups". That is fired cases or projectiles. Even then, discovery of fired cases marked as Mark V would not be conclusive - as some .303" ammunition commenced as Mark V and was instead loaded with round nosed Mk.II projectiles after the Mk.V type had been sidelined.
Yes, Dave, a soldier could indeed mutilate a projectile by scoring it's tip; running the risk of blowing the core of the bullet through the bullet jacket and - disaster - leaving the jacket as a bore obstruction. To conclude an overly long response, Regular units in SA did have "kit and ammunition inspections" (see p94 of "The letters, etc, of Malcolm Riall from the War in SA" ISBN 1 85753 266 X - where an officer can be seen peering at a kit array with ammunition clearly spread out on ground sheets. Clearly such inspections did happen.

Hi IL,

Thanks for your reply. You possess far more knowledge on this subject than I have. It's interesting that the Mk. V ammunition was being produced throughout the 2nd Anglo Boer War. It begs the question why? and who was it delivered to?

While walking on the battlefields, several members of our party including myself was actively looking for "pickups", and we found virtually nothing. Battlefields such as Magesfontein appear to have been picked clean, or what is left has been buried by soil erosion etc. Even in isolated places, there is little to be found. So I'm guessing that the evidence no longer exists, assuming of course, that expanding bullets was frequently used.

When I asked about metal detectors, they are seldom used anywhere in SA. Even so, their use on the battlefield is illegal, as is the act of removing anything from a battlefield.

I did wonder if mutilated bullet could disintegrate in the barrel. I had visions of the rifle exploding !

Dave

Hello Dave,
I can't speak for Lord Methuen and the Highland Brigade, but, I can tell you that some Boers did indeed use expanding ammunition on the 11th December 1899 at Magersfontein!
Regards Frank

Dave Naden wrote: Hi IL,

Thanks for your reply. You possess far more knowledge on this subject than I have. It's interesting that the Mk. V ammunition was being produced throughout the 2nd Anglo Boer War. It begs the question why? and who was it delivered to?

While walking on the battlefields, several members of our party including myself was actively looking for "pickups", and we found virtually nothing. Battlefields such as Magesfontein appear to have been picked clean, or what is left has been buried by soil erosion etc. Even in isolated places, there is little to be found. So I'm guessing that the evidence no longer exists, assuming of course, that expanding bullets was frequently used.

When I asked about metal detectors, they are seldom used anywhere in SA. Even so, their use on the battlefield is illegal, as is the act of removing anything from a battlefield.

I did wonder if mutilated bullet could disintegrate in the barrel. I had visions of the rifle exploding !

Dave