TOPIC:

Interested Forum members
As foreshadowed, I have taken a number of pics of samples reasonably id'd as coming from the ABW. I will submit each pic individually; together with description(s).
The first shows (top) a sample of the 8x60R Guedes round and (bottom) for comparison, a sample of the normal issue .303" Mk.II Cordite Ball round.
The 8mm Guedes rifle was a single-shot type; superficially similar to the Martini-Henry and made by Steyr in Austria for Portugal c. 1885-86. The Guedes rifle and special 8mm cartridge were rapidly overtaken by developments and the partially filled order was cancelled in 3/1886 in favour of a magazine design. The undelivered rifles went into storage. In the immediate wake of the Jameson Raid, the Transvaal Government discovered it had a critical shortage of rifles and General Joubert was empowered to buy suitable rifles urgently. Even though the good General was not impressed with the Guedes, things were desperate. An order was placed via a British intermediary and "several thousand" Guedes rifles were shipped to SA on 03021896; together with suitable ammunition.
The illustrated 8mm Guedes round bears the enigmatic headstamp "96" and is clearly of European manufacture. The round is loaded with a 247 grain, steel jacketed, lead cored bullet and used either black powder or "semi-smokeless" propellant.
The 8mm Guedes rifle was not popular with the burghers. Here in OZ, the occasional Guedes may be seen (some marked Z.A.R.) and examples of it's special ammunition are quite scarce.
IL.

Good morning Ian,
The thing I notice here is the size of the case in comparision to the .303, assume the propellant charge was of nitro powder and somewhat greater?
A very good photo too, but, can you re post the pic, so it appears on this page with the original description?
Regards Frank

Hi Ian,
Would you hazard a guess to their manufacturer? I am surprised by the use of black powder from a European company, at that time, but, I suppose it was far cheaper.
Frank

Frank and any others interested in this topic
Given certain characteristics of the 8x60R Guedes round I illustrated, I think it is of European manufacture. Similar rounds are very ocasionally found with headstamp "F&C 1896"; supposedly Portuguese make. Hoyem in the History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition (vol.2) states that ZAR obtained Guedes ammunition from Roth of Vienna and DWM Germany "and possibly others". Sources indicate that ZAR Guedes rounds were loaded with either black or smokeless propellant. My bet would be the latter. Unfortunately, I have no spare to dissect!
Given the situation the Republics found themselves in after the Raid, it is hard to be critical of the Guedes rifle buy. The Guedes was, after all, similar in operation to the Martini-Henry (surely familiar to most burghers) and had superior ballistics. And, hopefully for the Boers, smokeless powder.
And the 7mm Mauser would not have been immediately available.
IL.

Good morning Ian,
Whilst nothing would surprise me about the products manufactured by George Roth, sat in the middle of the decaying empire, I would be very surprised, well amazed really, if Deutches Waffen und Munitions Fabriken, were actually filling these with black powder!
I had no idea they made them either.
Regards Frank