TOPIC:

Hi Frank,

I actually just wondered if Freddy hadn't been Lord Roberts son, whether he would have been awarded the VC.
Sure it was a brave act to try to rescue the guns but he didn't actually do anything but get shot riding to the guns; very dubious.
I'm sure there were thousands of more courageous acts during the course of the war that weren't rewarded!

kind regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Iain,
No, there were several others from memory, Harry Schofield springs to mind, he was originally recomended for a DSO, but, this was upgraded to the Victoria Cross.
With Freddy Roberts though, it becomes rather interesting, when Buller recommended him, he threw aside forty odd years of precedence.
The original VC Warrant of 1856 did not exclude men who had been killed or indeed mortally wounded, men like Roberts for example, it was Lord Panmore that started the trouble in April 1856, he sent a letter to the War Office, in reply to a request that a certain soldier, who had been killed, be awarded the VC, he said "The cross is an order for the living!" and so it all started.
I have not looked at them for years now, but, in WO32 and WO98, you will find memoranda regarding at least half a dozen soldiers, including those from the Crimea and Zulu Wars, who really deserved the VC, but, had been either killed or mortally wounded and because of that precedent by Lord Panmore, did not receive it at the time.
Kind regards Frank

Paul, a really good card!

Hello Iain,
I don't want get into an area of nepotism on this, because, I feel that Freddy was a brave and popular officer, as I understand it, Buller ordered Harry Schofield to recover those guns, but, his attempt was a failure, he and his men came under really intense fire from the enemy.
Buller, then turned to his staff and said "Some of you go and help Schofield" Walter Congreve and Freddy Roberts immediately stepped forward and with several others, collected enough gunners and drivers together to get the job done.
Roberts rode out of the donga and had gone about thirty yards, he was seen laughing and waving his riding crop, then a Boer shell exploded close to him, killing his horse and mortally wounding him.
So what had in effect been an order from Buller, had infact, killed the only son of the new Commander in Chief South Africa, of course, it may be the case that Buller felt the need to recommend him for the VC, but, he did, I feel do, what many people would have done, including me.
I don't think there is ever anything dubious about valor on the battlefield, courage, displayed by men like Freddy Roberts never goes out of fashion, it should aways be remembered that there were many countless brave acts that went unrewarded too.
Kind regards Frank

iaindh wrote: Hi Frank,

I actually just wondered if Freddy hadn't been Lord Roberts son, whether he would have been awarded the VC.
Sure it was a brave act to try to rescue the guns but he didn't actually do anything but get shot riding to the guns; very dubious.
I'm sure there were thousands of more courageous acts during the course of the war that weren't rewarded!

kind regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Iain,
No, there were several others from memory, Harry Schofield springs to mind, he was originally recomended for a DSO, but, this was upgraded to the Victoria Cross.
With Freddy Roberts though, it becomes rather interesting, when Buller recommended him, he threw aside forty odd years of precedence.
The original VC Warrant of 1856 did not exclude men who had been killed or indeed mortally wounded, men like Roberts for example, it was Lord Panmore that started the trouble in April 1856, he sent a letter to the War Office, in reply to a request that a certain soldier, who had been killed, be awarded the VC, he said "The cross is an order for the living!" and so it all started.
I have not looked at them for years now, but, in WO32 and WO98, you will find memoranda regarding at least half a dozen soldiers, including those from the Crimea and Zulu Wars, who really deserved the VC, but, had been either killed or mortally wounded and because of that precedent by Lord Panmore, did not receive it at the time.
Kind regards Frank

Paul, a really good card!

Hi Frank,

Just speculating

kind regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Iain,
I don't want get into an area of nepotism on this, because, I feel that Freddy was a brave and popular officer, as I understand it, Buller ordered Harry Schofield to recover those guns, but, his attempt was a failure, he and his men came under really intense fire from the enemy.
Buller, then turned to his staff and said "Some of you go and help Schofield" Walter Congreve and Freddy Roberts immediately stepped forward and with several others, collected enough gunners and drivers together to get the job done.
Roberts rode out of the donga and had gone about thirty yards, he was seen laughing and waving his riding crop, then a Boer shell exploded close to him, killing his horse and mortally wounding him.
So what had in effect been an order from Buller, had infact, killed the only son of the new Commander in Chief South Africa, of course, it may be the case that Buller felt the need to recommend him for the VC, but, he did, I feel do, what many people would have done, including me.
I don't think there is ever anything dubious about valor on the battlefield, courage, displayed by men like Freddy Roberts never goes out of fashion, it should aways be remembered that there were many countless brave acts that went unrewarded too.
Kind regards Frank

]

Hi Iain,
Look, there is no doubt in my mind that Freddy's father would be uppermost in Buller's mind, but, I am just not going down that road today!
Frank

iaindh wrote: Hi Frank,

Just speculating

kind regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Iain,
I don't want get into an area of nepotism on this, because, I feel that Freddy was a brave and popular officer, as I understand it, Buller ordered Harry Schofield to recover those guns, but, his attempt was a failure, he and his men came under really intense fire from the enemy.
Buller, then turned to his staff and said "Some of you go and help Schofield" Walter Congreve and Freddy Roberts immediately stepped forward and with several others, collected enough gunners and drivers together to get the job done.
Roberts rode out of the donga and had gone about thirty yards, he was seen laughing and waving his riding crop, then a Boer shell exploded close to him, killing his horse and mortally wounding him.
So what had in effect been an order from Buller, had infact, killed the only son of the new Commander in Chief South Africa, of course, it may be the case that Buller felt the need to recommend him for the VC, but, he did, I feel do, what many people would have done, including me.
I don't think there is ever anything dubious about valor on the battlefield, courage, displayed by men like Freddy Roberts never goes out of fashion, it should aways be remembered that there were many countless brave acts that went unrewarded too.
Kind regards Frank

]

Paul,
I'm not that into postcards, but, if you happen to chance on another of these, I'd be happy to buy it from you, I have a special interest in Manchester Fort and Caesar's Camp, I also like your avatar for the same reason, perhaps I need to find one of those too!
Frank

Brett Hendey wrote: Paul/Frank

Getting back to the monument shown on the postcard on Post #12568 ........

I do not have a photo of the Manchester Regiment monument at Caesar's camp, but I checked the Internet and this does indeed appear to be that monument.

Regards
Brett

Frank,
I will certainly keep a look out for you on my travels

Paul

Frank Kelley wrote: Paul,
I'm not that into postcards, but, if you happen to chance on another of these, I'd be happy to buy it from you, I have a special interest in Manchester Fort and Caesar's Camp, I also like your avatar for the same reason, perhaps I need to find one of those too!
Frank

Brett Hendey wrote: Paul/Frank

Getting back to the monument shown on the postcard on Post #12568 ........

I do not have a photo of the Manchester Regiment monument at Caesar's camp, but I checked the Internet and this does indeed appear to be that monument.

Regards
Brett