TOPIC:

One of the issues with the CJR statue is it's location and it's private ownership, clearly, the students are very young and impressionable, the university will simply see the statue as the problem, the easy, cheap and obvious answer, as far as they will be concerned, is to simply remove it, but, other statues and monuments will doubtless be, in effect, public property, which is very clearly a different matter altogether, depending on their particular location.
The grave of CJR himself, is and has been, for quite some time, protected by law, it is an important part of the countries evolution, but, that has nothing to do with the South African government whatsoever, it was certainly well made and has resisted a number of attempts to destroy it down the years.

AnorakABO wrote: Thing that concerns me about the removal of Rhodes' statue is that it was authorised by the University of Cape Town; i.e. it's not vandalism when it's sanctioned. They've removed the statute without firm indication as to where it will be relocated to. What's more, the degradation it was subjected to (bag over the head, caution tape wrapped around it etc) speaks volumes about the perpetrators. You have to wonder about the state of affairs in South Africa when Mugabe blocks the exhumation of Rhodes' remains stating that "it is part of <their> national history and heritage and therefore it should not be tampered with".

I meant that as an indictment on the South African government; that Mugabe, and his government, should appear as a "voice of reason".

Frank Kelley wrote: that has nothing to do with the South African government whatsoever

The two are completely different issues, on the one hand you have a privately owned inanimate lump that is causing offence amongst students in one country and on the other hand, in another country, you have a grave that is also, in effect, a national monument, but, it remains, first and foremost, a grave.
The problem with the statue, is simply that it has caused many people to jump on the band wagon and attack other statues and war memorials throughout the country.
With particular regard to the grave, I know very well, that your average Ndebele who are really Matabele, in particular, certainly always used to have very strong religious beliefs, I remember meeting a few as a small child and have absolutely no doubts whatsoever on that, I'm fairly confident little has changed, but, I certainly would not describe the current government as a "voice of reason" in that particular country, although, it is, of course, their country to govern.

I don't think they're completely different issues; I think they have a fair amount in common. I concede that, in one instance, we're speaking of someone's mortal remains though. Do you honestly believe though that Malema and the EFF will stop once the statues have come down? Next on their list will be the Heroes Acre in Church Street, Pretoria. Mugabe at least acknowledged Rhodes as part of Zimbabwe's history. Malema and the EFF want to erase all memory of colonialism in South Africa.

David, I have some questions re: Elandslaagte. Schiel speaks of "a group of mounted men" who "took their departure in a north-westerly direction". And Meiklejohn mentions "Had the true Boer element on the enemy's extreme left remained in their position, instead of decamping at about 3pm, it is open to conjecture whether their resistance ... would have converted ... into a Pyrrhic Victory". Are Schiel and Mieklejohn speaking of the same group of men?

I've found (on BCCD) record of F.W. Stieler's family's arrival at the Middelburg Concentration Camp. On the record it states they "Surrendered, 28 February 1902". Was there an event of any significance connected to this date, that might have necessitated their surrender? Also, they're listed as Middelburg / Stephanus Petrus Erasmus Trichardt's Commando. Was S. Trichardt present at the Battle of Elandslaagte?

Frank Kelley wrote: The two are completely different issues, on the one hand you have a privately owned inanimate lump that is causing offence amongst students in one country and on the other hand, in another country, you have a grave that is also, in effect, a national monument, but, it remains, first and foremost, a grave.

I know very well, that your average Ndebele who are really Matabele, in particular, certainly always used to have very strong religious beliefs, I remember meeting a few as a small child and have absolutely no doubts whatsoever on that, I'm fairly confident little has changed, but, I certainly would not describe the current government as a "voice of reason" in that particular country, although, it is, of course, their country to govern.

I take it you don't actually live in South Africa, if you did, you would have foreseen all of this for almost three decades now, for me, at least, they certainly remain two differing issues in two differing countries, but, I don't live in either and it is up to those who do, if they have issues, to raise them, I have to say that the writing has been on the wall since 1994 in the case of South Africa and I'm not all that surprised really.
The only thing that I do draw the line about is the desecration of graves, whether or not officially done, or, as is often the case, in South Africa these days, the attention of vandals.

AnorakABO wrote: I don't think they're completely different issues; I think they have a fair amount in common. I concede that, in one instance, we're speaking of someone's mortal remains though. Do you honestly believe though that Malema and the EFF will stop once the statues have come down? Next on their list will be the Heroes Acre in Church Street, Pretoria. Mugabe at least acknowledged Rhodes as part of Zimbabwe's history. Malema and the EFF want to erase all memory of colonialism in South Africa.

David, I have some questions re: Elandslaagte. Schiel speaks of "a group of mounted men" who "took their departure in a north-westerly direction". And Meiklejohn mentions "Had the true Boer element on the enemy's extreme left remained in their position, instead of decamping at about 3pm, it is open to conjecture whether their resistance ... would have converted ... into a Pyrrhic Victory". Are Schiel and Mieklejohn speaking of the same group of men?

I've found (on BCCD) record of F.W. Stieler's family's arrival at the Middelburg Concentration Camp. On the record it states they "Surrendered, 28 February 1902". Was there an event of any significance connected to this date, that might have necessitated their surrender? Also, they're listed as Middelburg / Stephanus Petrus Erasmus Trichardt's Commando. Was S. Trichardt present at the Battle of Elandslaagte?

Frank Kelley wrote: The two are completely different issues, on the one hand you have a privately owned inanimate lump that is causing offence amongst students in one country and on the other hand, in another country, you have a grave that is also, in effect, a national monument, but, it remains, first and foremost, a grave.

I know very well, that your average Ndebele who are really Matabele, in particular, certainly always used to have very strong religious beliefs, I remember meeting a few as a small child and have absolutely no doubts whatsoever on that, I'm fairly confident little has changed, but, I certainly would not describe the current government as a "voice of reason" in that particular country, although, it is, of course, their country to govern.

I've found an article on Trove titled "The Captures at Nooitgedacht":

London, 24th February 1902.
Particulars which have come to hand of the recent capture of 164 Boers at Nooitgedacht on the Delagoa railway, by Colonel Parks' mounted force and a body of National Burgher Scouts, show that the troops under Colonels Parks, Williams, and Urmston, surprised three of Trichardt's laagers, but the members of the Boer Government and the notorious train-wrecker Jack Hindon escaped. Twenty of Trichardt's force surrendered at Middelburg, and Colonel Williams captured more on Saturday.

The date's close, though not exact.

AnorakABO wrote: "Surrendered, 28 February 1902". Was there an event of any significance connected to this date, that might have necessitated their surrender? Also, they're listed as Middelburg / Stephanus Petrus Erasmus Trichardt's Commando.