Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC:

Retention of service number from Commander in Chief's Bodyguard 4 years 1 month ago #71896

  • Moranthorse1
  • Moranthorse1's Avatar Topic Author
  • Away
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 1009
  • Thank you received: 885

Attachment not found

Attachment not found

Attachment not found

.
On 29th July 2020 I acquired the following QSA to Canadian Scout William Young Birrell impressed thus:
27490 SERJT:W. Y. BIRRELL. CANDN:SCTS
Clasps: CAPE COLONY/ORANGE FREESTATE/TRANSVAAL/SOUTH AFRICA 1901/SOUTH AFRICA 1902.
The medal is the first in my collection to the Canadian Scouts. Birrell's service record is as follows :
Canadian Scouts 32417 sergeant-11th January 1902 to 30th June 1902.
Kitchener's Fighting Scouts 2nd Battalion 27490-10th December 1900 to 16th December 1901.
Commander in Chief's Bodyguard 27490-10th December 1900 till transfer to KFS (a discrepancy in dates here. Pretty sure his transfer to KFS would be around July 1901 after disbandment ).

As a collector of medals to the bodyguard, this was an example of the QSA I couldn't resist!
Something else I noticed about the impressed naming also piqued my interest. Birrell's service number in CS was 32417 and yet 27490 was his number in the bodyguard and also in KFS.
There are many examples of discrepancies on the nominal and medal rolls of the boer war where initials, surnames numbers etc are incorrect which can make research more difficult, especially when an individual has served in multiple units. For example, Sergeant V. E. H. Brisco of the Canadian Scouts served in a total of 8 units ( Wallace 2018).
I was very satisfied with my acquisition, the apparent anomaly adds to it's appeal.

I have recently read 'Steinaeckers Horsemen' (Wooler 2006) from cover to cover and noted a total of 34 men of the unit who had served previously in the bodyguard, 6 of whom had numbers which followed them to subsequent units, though not to SH.

List 1--men of Steinaeckers Horse with service number retention after bodyguard.
22765 Trooper Henry Ellis bodyguard to 22765 Johannesburg Mounted Rifles.
25141 Trooper William B. Griffin bodyguard to 25141 JMR.
22627 Trooper Robert Jackson bodyguard to 22627 JMR.
34791 Trooper Charles Knowles bodyguard to 34791 JMR.
22515 Trooper Charlie Edward Middleton - Stewart bodyguard to 22515 JMR.
34327 Trooper Jacob von Siedel bodyguard to 34327 JMR.

I went back to Birrell's service record and took a look at his KFS details and found that numerous other men also reatained their service numbers from the bodyguard.
I have detailed below a small sample list from the KFS nominal roll with the initial B.

List 2--men of Kitchener's fighting Scouts with service number retention after bodyguard.
27528 Sergeant William Stadforth Boyce.
27415 Corporal Nils Buren.
20761 Corporal Henry Budge.
27386 Lance Corporal James William Bailey.
27379 Trooper Hugh Bailey.
25609 Trooper Joseph Baker.
27315 Trooper Ernest Barnwell.

As usual, I will end this post with a couple of questions for the forum please.
1--would there be a reason for number retention within specific colonial units?
2--why would Birrell's QSA have a mixture of number from bodyguard and name of his final unit?
3--alot of men with bodyguard service did not retain their number in other units, so were JMR, KFS and CS left to their own administration practices?

I will end by expressing my appreciation of the biographical sections of the references and ABW. They are a great resource.
A report on William Young Birrell is in progress, I just have to decide which unit thread to add it to! Bodyguard because of the number or Canadian Scouts for the naming! Or maybe go for his own thread!
Cheers Steve

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Retention of service number from Commander in Chief's Bodyguard 4 years 1 month ago #71897

  • Moranthorse1
  • Moranthorse1's Avatar Topic Author
  • Away
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 1009
  • Thank you received: 885


IMAGES OF IMPRESSED NAMING FOR BIRRELL'S QSA TO ADD TO PREVIOUS POST.
CHEERS STEVE
Attachments:

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Retention of service number from Commander in Chief's Bodyguard 4 years 1 month ago #71908

  • Frank Kelley
  • Frank Kelley's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 6739
  • Thank you received: 958
Any retention of a number is simply because of a transfer and not a discharge having taken place, certainly from memory, the C in C Bodyguard was formally disbanded in Pretoria in September 1901, I think the way to go with this would be a careful look throughout WO126/31-34 at Kew, there might be some annotation regarding an exact date upon any extant paper.


Moranthorse1 wrote:

Attachment not found

Attachment not found

Attachment not found

.
On 29th July 2020 I acquired the following QSA to Canadian Scout William Young Birrell impressed thus:
27490 SERJT:W. Y. BIRRELL. CANDN:SCTS
Clasps: CAPE COLONY/ORANGE FREESTATE/TRANSVAAL/SOUTH AFRICA 1901/SOUTH AFRICA 1902.
The medal is the first in my collection to the Canadian Scouts. Birrell's service record is as follows :
Canadian Scouts 32417 sergeant-11th January 1902 to 30th June 1902.
Kitchener's Fighting Scouts 2nd Battalion 27490-10th December 1900 to 16th December 1901.
Commander in Chief's Bodyguard 27490-10th December 1900 till transfer to KFS (a discrepancy in dates here. Pretty sure his transfer to KFS would be around July 1901 after disbandment ).

As a collector of medals to the bodyguard, this was an example of the QSA I couldn't resist!
Something else I noticed about the impressed naming also piqued my interest. Birrell's service number in CS was 32417 and yet 27490 was his number in the bodyguard and also in KFS.
There are many examples of discrepancies on the nominal and medal rolls of the boer war where initials, surnames numbers etc are incorrect which can make research more difficult, especially when an individual has served in multiple units. For example, Sergeant V. E. H. Brisco of the Canadian Scouts served in a total of 8 units ( Wallace 2018).
I was very satisfied with my acquisition, the apparent anomaly adds to it's appeal.

I have recently read 'Steinaeckers Horsemen' (Wooler 2006) from cover to cover and noted a total of 34 men of the unit who had served previously in the bodyguard, 6 of whom had numbers which followed them to subsequent units, though not to SH.

List 1--men of Steinaeckers Horse with service number retention after bodyguard.
22765 Trooper Henry Ellis bodyguard to 22765 Johannesburg Mounted Rifles.
25141 Trooper William B. Griffin bodyguard to 25141 JMR.
22627 Trooper Robert Jackson bodyguard to 22627 JMR.
34791 Trooper Charles Knowles bodyguard to 34791 JMR.
22515 Trooper Charlie Edward Middleton - Stewart bodyguard to 22515 JMR.
34327 Trooper Jacob von Siedel bodyguard to 34327 JMR.

I went back to Birrell's service record and took a look at his KFS details and found that numerous other men also reatained their service numbers from the bodyguard.
I have detailed below a small sample list from the KFS nominal roll with the initial B.

List 2--men of Kitchener's fighting Scouts with service number retention after bodyguard.
27528 Sergeant William Stadforth Boyce.
27415 Corporal Nils Buren.
20761 Corporal Henry Budge.
27386 Lance Corporal James William Bailey.
27379 Trooper Hugh Bailey.
25609 Trooper Joseph Baker.
27315 Trooper Ernest Barnwell.

As usual, I will end this post with a couple of questions for the forum please.
1--would there be a reason for number retention within specific colonial units?
2--why would Birrell's QSA have a mixture of number from bodyguard and name of his final unit?
3--alot of men with bodyguard service did not retain their number in other units, so were JMR, KFS and CS left to their own administration practices?

I will end by expressing my appreciation of the biographical sections of the references and ABW. They are a great resource.
A report on William Young Birrell is in progress, I just have to decide which unit thread to add it to! Bodyguard because of the number or Canadian Scouts for the naming! Or maybe go for his own thread!
Cheers Steve

The following user(s) said Thank You: Moranthorse1

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Retention of service number from Commander in Chief's Bodyguard 4 years 1 month ago #71909

  • Moranthorse1
  • Moranthorse1's Avatar Topic Author
  • Away
  • Senior Member
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 1009
  • Thank you received: 885
Hi Frank,
Many thanks for your reply and advice. I will follow your lead.
Cheers Steve.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Moderators: djb
Time to create page: 0.454 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum