TOPIC:

Good Morning Everyone.....

Many years ago I was given a shell fragment that was supposedly picked up from the battle field by the Grandson of one of the men who fought there.... Who went on to become one of the masons who built the Canadian Memorial at Vimy Ridge..... He also found a German shell fuse cap which he mounted on a stand from the material that the Vimy memorial was made.....

Mike

Brett Hendey wrote: Frank

At that time, the road to the summit was lined with shell fragments collected from the summit and all have since been taken as souvenirs by visitors.

Regards
Brett

Gentlemen,
The Kop was washed with artillery fire during the battle, canister, was very devastating in particular, and batteries like the 19th Royal Field Artillery poured it on in very high dosage, even at low sub sonic velocity, it proved very effective, this is a British example, again from the Kop.

Good Morning Everyone.....

Here are a couple of photos......

The first is the shell fragment which is about 2" in length, I would not like to have been hit by it.....

And for your viewing pleasure the shell cap and stand from Vimy.....

Mike

As far as I'm concerned, the plan could have worked but a complete incompetent was in charge, Warren! Buller unfortunately stood back and let him get on with it! Sadly

regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Brett,
What strikes me, even to this day, is just how small the plateau actually is, a complete waste of time and a bloody silly place to loose ones life.
I sometimes wish I could go back in time just for a few seconds to visit Buller and scream at him, a la Jeremy Clarkson, "No, you're doing it all wrong, you complete and utter numpty"
Never mind, can't have everything I want!
Kind regards Frank

Hello Iain,
I feel, to be quite honest that the "plan" if it can be called that, was awful.
If you look at Sir Charles Warren's 5th Infantry Division, you can see he had a great number of people attached who actually knew both the country and the enemy rather better than he did, members of the Colonial Scouts, for example.
Given that members of his MI had scouted the left flank and found a clear route to Ladysmith, the assault on Spion Kop was a complete waste of time and life.
It is very easy to sit down today and be an armchair tactician, the Anglo Boer War was a very real media war and the British Army were not to quick to fully understand this, so you have men like Warren and Buller who are very profligate with their own men, I cannot help but think that they rather enjoyed the thought of a big battle.
If you actually look at the Commander in Chief's dispatches however things do become rather more clear, he said,

"That it failed may, in some measure, be due to the difficulties of the ground and the commanding positions held by the enemy.
Probably also the errors of judgement and want of administrative capacity on the part of Sir Charles Warren, but, whatever the faults Sir Charles Warren may have committed, the failure must be ascribed to the disinclination of the officer in supreme command to assert his authority and see that the best was done"

Buller did not and made no attempt to "see that the best was done" and so I would like to take this up with him, as stated, just for a few seconds!

Regards Frank

iaindh wrote: As far as I'm concerned, the plan could have worked but a complete incompetent was in charge, Warren! Buller unfortunately stood back and let him get on with it! Sadly

regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Brett,
What strikes me, even to this day, is just how small the plateau actually is, a complete waste of time and a bloody silly place to loose ones life.
I sometimes wish I could go back in time just for a few seconds to visit Buller and scream at him, a la Jeremy Clarkson, "No, you're doing it all wrong, you complete and utter numpty"
Never mind, can't have everything I want!
Kind regards Frank

Hi Frank,

you're probably right in that they thought crushing the Boer army was the first priority and then Ladysmith was relieved anyway!
If I recall. Buller had no say in Warren's selection as 2IC; was it not Lord Roberts decision?
But Warren took 10 days to organise himself giving the Boers the opportunity to reinforce.

One day you'll get the chance to speak to old Sir Redvers, if you both end up in the same place that is.

Does anyone know the final count attributed to Spioenkop, including died of wounds?

regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Iain,
I feel, to be quite honest that the "plan" if it can be called that, was awful.
If you look at Sir Charles Warren's 5th Infantry Division, you can see he had a great number of people attached who actually knew both the country and the enemy rather better than he did, members of the Colonial Scouts, for example.
Given that members of his MI had scouted the left flank and found a clear route to Ladysmith, the assault on Spion Kop was a complete waste of time and life.
It is very easy to sit down today and be an armchair tactician, the Anglo Boer War was a very real media war and the British Army were not to quick to fully understand this, so you have men like Warren and Buller who are very profligate with their own men, I cannot help but think that they rather enjoyed the thought of a big battle.
If you actually look at the Commander in Chief's dispatches however things do become rather more clear, he said,

"That it failed may, in some measure, be due to the difficulties of the ground and the commanding positions held by the enemy.
Probably also the errors of judgement and want of administrative capacity on the part of Sir Charles Warren, but, whatever the faults Sir Charles Warren may have committed, the failure must be ascribed to the disinclination of the officer in supreme command to assert his authority and see that the best was done"

Buller did not and made no attempt to "see that the best was done" and so I would like to take this up with him, as stated, just for a few seconds!

Regards Frank

iaindh wrote: As far as I'm concerned, the plan could have worked but a complete incompetent was in charge, Warren! Buller unfortunately stood back and let him get on with it! Sadly

regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Brett,
What strikes me, even to this day, is just how small the plateau actually is, a complete waste of time and a bloody silly place to loose ones life.
I sometimes wish I could go back in time just for a few seconds to visit Buller and scream at him, a la Jeremy Clarkson, "No, you're doing it all wrong, you complete and utter numpty"
Never mind, can't have everything I want!
Kind regards Frank