TOPIC:

One tends to forget how deadly shrapnel can be... A 2 inch piece spinning through the air would certainly mess up your hairstyle!

Iain

Never mind Iain,
Had there not been a battle, we would not be on here talking about it today, moreover, people like Thorneycroft and Nolan would not have had a chance to show their valor on the Kop.

iaindh wrote: Hi Frank,

you're probably right in that they thought crushing the Boer army was the first priority and then Ladysmith was relieved anyway!
If I recall. Buller had no say in Warren's selection as 2IC; was it not Lord Roberts decision?
But Warren took 10 days to organise himself giving the Boers the opportunity to reinforce.

One day you'll get the chance to speak to old Sir Redvers, if you both end up in the same place that is.

Does anyone know the final count attributed to Spioenkop, including died of wounds?

regards, Iain

Of course, we can't change history but we can discuss it.

I thought that Maj-Gen Woodgate, being fatally wounded was unfortunate but it gave Thorneycroft his opening. Woodgate was a veteran of the Zulu war.

Frank Kelley wrote: Never mind Iain,
Had there not been a battle, we would not be on here talking about it today, moreover, people like Thorneycroft and Nolan would not have had a chance to show their valor on the Kop./quote]

Hello Iain,
I certainly don't think that the destruction of a quite small number of Boers on the Kop would be thought of as the Boer army, but, I do think that very many Victorian officers enjoyed even the mere thought of a big battle, again, I just think of it as just a complete waste of time and valor that could have been put to better use elsewhere.

Back then the army was in a very strange place because of the advances made in modern weapons, in particular, the enemies use of modern smokeless propellants, yet, as soon as battle was joined, both, the divisonal and brigade commanders had no real way of controling it and actually doing what they really wanted to do.
They had only lamps and heliographs, if you used anthing more than just a simple codeword, you then had to decode it, which took more time and effort, always assuming that there was someone left alive, so what you often end up with plain morse being used and with it, the ever present risk that the enemy would know what you were going to, before you actually did it.
A runner was the only really secure way, but, that took time too, time was all important on the 24th of January.
So much courage was shown and then wasted, if you look at the big picture you can see that a real problem was the enfilading fire from Boer artillery positions that overlooked the plateau.
Thorneycroft asked Warren for support, Warren should have realised that the best thing to do would have been to break through the Boer lines and attack elsewhere, but by the time he does start to think about it, the day has worn on, so he asks his brigade commanders for help.
Only Lyttleton was up for it and in the event, he wavered, he sent the "covenanters" up to the Kop, but, sent the very talented and superb 3rd Battalion KRRC to assualt Twin Peaks.
This latter could have saved the day because I'm sure that when Shalk Burger saw them coming he would have realised what could happen, so much so, that he withdrew his artillery there and then.
Lyttleton had believed Twin Peaks to actually be better defended than it was and decided to abort the 3rd's advance after it had begun, his order was ignored, so he sent a second order, also ignored.
The gentleman who ignored two very clear orders was Lieutenant Colonel Robert George Buchanan Riddell, a man for whom this battle was unfinished business, he had served in the old 3rd 60th and had met the Boers before.
This really rather goes back to my thoughts at the begining of this post, I would think that Buchanan Riddell could not wait to get stuck in.
After and only after he had been mortally wounded and after yet another order (third time lucky perhaps?) was received to retire, the 3rd, very reluctantly, did withdraw from Twin Peaks.
I salute a superb and very gallant officer on here today
So you see Iain, a missed chance and the life of yet another very fine officer wasted for no gain whatsoever!
Regarding casualties, without number crunching, from memory, it was around 1500 for us and around 200 for the enemy
A complete waste!
Kind regards Frank

iaindh wrote: Hi Frank,

you're probably right in that they thought crushing the Boer army was the first priority and then Ladysmith was relieved anyway!
If I recall. Buller had no say in Warren's selection as 2IC; was it not Lord Roberts decision?
But Warren took 10 days to organise himself giving the Boers the opportunity to reinforce.

One day you'll get the chance to speak to old Sir Redvers, if you both end up in the same place that is.

Does anyone know the final count attributed to Spioenkop, including died of wounds?

regards, Iain

Frank Kelley wrote: Hello Iain,
I feel, to be quite honest that the "plan" if it can be called that, was awful.
If you look at Sir Charles Warren's 5th Infantry Division, you can see he had a great number of people attached who actually knew both the country and the enemy rather better than he did, members of the Colonial Scouts, for example.
Given that members of his MI had scouted the left flank and found a clear route to Ladysmith, the assault on Spion Kop was a complete waste of time and life.
It is very easy to sit down today and be an armchair tactician, the Anglo Boer War was a very real media war and the British Army were not to quick to fully understand this, so you have men like Warren and Buller who are very profligate with their own men, I cannot help but think that they rather enjoyed the thought of a big battle.
If you actually look at the Commander in Chief's dispatches however things do become rather more clear, he said,

"That it failed may, in some measure, be due to the difficulties of the ground and the commanding positions held by the enemy.
Probably also the errors of judgement and want of administrative capacity on the part of Sir Charles Warren, but, whatever the faults Sir Charles Warren may have committed, the failure must be ascribed to the disinclination of the officer in supreme command to assert his authority and see that the best was done"

Buller did not and made no attempt to "see that the best was done" and so I would like to take this up with him, as stated, just for a few seconds!

Regards Frank

iaindh wrote: As far as I'm concerned, the plan could have worked but a complete incompetent was in charge, Warren! Buller unfortunately stood back and let him get on with it! Sadly

regards, Iain

Hello Iain,
We can indeed discuss it here, so have you ever set foot on the Kop,(In Natal, not Liverpool!) a magnificent view from the plateau!
Tell me Iain, what does it actually mean to you.
For me it is all about the many acts of valor, the one that I perhaps admire the most took place on the 24th at around 14.00 hours, a group of Boer's rushed part of the South Lancashire's line and crossed into it, a handful of the defenders put down their rifles and raised their hands to surrender.
Seeing this happening in front of him, Colour Sergeant John Nolan, a twenty seven year old weaver from Preston, rushed forward, bayonet fixed and drove the enemy out with a shout of "When I surrender, it will be over my dead body"
He got his men back together and survived both the day and the war, to tell the tale to his family.
I admire these lads in exactly the same way that I do, the Manchester's, at Manchester Fort on the 6th of January and of course a great many were very local to me too.
Kind regards again, Frank

iaindh wrote: Of course, we can't change history but we can discuss it.

I thought that Maj-Gen Woodgate, being fatally wounded was unfortunate but it gave Thorneycroft his opening. Woodgate was a veteran of the Zulu war.

Frank Kelley wrote: Never mind Iain,
Had there not been a battle, we would not be on here talking about it today, moreover, people like Thorneycroft and Nolan would not have had a chance to show their valor on the Kop./quote]

Hi Frank,

in reply to your 2 posts:

Yes, the officers of the time were itching to get revenge over Majuba but the conquest of Spioenkop was an attempt to achieve dominance over the area rather than a full scale battle on that Kopjie.

it is so very sad and frustrating that after any achievements that had been made were squandered by withdrawal. Having achieved a foothold and so many lives wasted.
The Boers considered Spioenkop their victory but in actual fact some of them, under Schalk Burger, were starting to withdraw and were surprised when they found that the Kop was empty of British soldiers the next morning.
Remember most Boer soldier didn't join the fight.
Yes, Lyttleton's and then Riddell's efforts were some of the few of note from British commanders; had they been carried through, the result may have been different. Warren should have cashiered!
Yes, we have individual acts of bravery which in the end were wasted.I feel that Thorneycroft, when he withdrew from the plateau was partly shell shocked and overcome by the horror of it all.

I was originally a Lancashire Lad myself with strong links to the British army. I tend to get cross about disasters like Spioenkop; the soldiers blindly follow their leaders into battle but most of their leaders are total incompetents.
I intend visiting Spioenkop and Wagon Hill when I go down to Natal next month.

kind regards, Iain