TOPIC:

Good Evening Everyone......

Just a note from The Times......

April 1st, 1901

Mike

QSAMIKE wrote: Good Evening Everyone......

Just a note from The Times......

April 1st, 1901

Mike

Hi. Mr Mike, was this the first time the British sent men, for Powell’s police?
Canada’s police contribution boarded and sailed on March 29th, 1901, 1,200 men, other accounts state 1238. Going through 1000s’ of pages, from the sessional papers, from 1900-03, an as yet only found one sailing date for all.



According to ABW.com:
Not included in the above figures are 30 officers and 1,208 men who joined the South African Constabulary. Stirling notes:

In addition to the contingents already mentioned, it should be borne in mind that Canada sent, in March and April 1901, 1238 officers and men to South Africa for the South African Constabulary (see evidence of Major General O'Grady-Haly before the War Commission). Many of these had belonged to the Royal Canadian Regiment of Infantry or to the first contingent of mounted men. Further, on 18th March, Mr Chamberlain having intimated that assistance to the extent of 2000 men would be accepted, Canada in response despatched, in the beginning of May 19O2, another immense force — namely, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th regiments of Mounted Rifles, each 509 strong. These arrived in South Africa just after peace was declared. Probably the fact that they were on the sea did help towards the attainment of the desired end.


I question Stirling’s account, and O'Grady-Haly evidence, according to prime source, many men after just serving six months, didn’t want and bluntly refused to extend their contracts, not counting 400+ were back in Canada, before FC RCR, sailed back.

Chambers in 1905-07 wrote: “On the return various contingents, no less than 310 officers and men remained in South Africa, with permission to join various military bodies.”

I can easily debunk Chambers, "on the return of various contingents," furthermore, “they join various military bodies,” that holds water, 300 RCR extended their contracts for six more months with British units.

Good Morning Spaniard......

According to the book "No Colours, No Drums" the History of the Canadians in the South African Constabulary, the contingent that sailed on the Mountfort on March 29th.....

And I quote from the book:

"In addition to Captain Fall, the South African Constabulary draft included 10 Captains, 18 Lieutenants,4 Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants, 12 Squadron Sergeant Majors, 48 Acting Sergeants, 13 Trumpeters, 1120 Rank and File and 2 Nursing Sisters......" - "A number of Officers and Recruits did not sail on SS Montford. Several were in hospital at Ottawa and Halifax and Minto recommended that when they were fit that they be sent on via England....."

Mike

Ok Mr. Mike thanks, I'll look into this account.

I just cut and pasted from text of the 1901 Canadian Gov. SP, with Cables ect.
Sorry for the mesh-mash words that’s the way the text is.


Lt.-Col. Otter's RCR account:

CANADIAN FORCES IN SOUTH AFRICA. p.19 (44)
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 35a

On the 20th April, the 19th Brigade received orders to march to Springfield, a faim some eight miles to the east of Bloemfontein, and there take over the duties of the 18th Brigade. We were, at the same time, instructed to take the least possible quantity of baggage, as it was not likely that we should be absent for more than three days. Consequently, when we marched on the next morning, we left our camp standing, with a large quantity of per-^onal baggage, and other store--, which had been accumulated during the last two weeks. We had also to leave in camp three officers and and about 1 50 men, who were unable to stand the fatigue of marching, besides those in hospital. Our marching out strength was 27 officers, 584 non-commissioned officers and men.



DEPARTMENT OF MILITIA AND DEFENCE, p.28 (53)
64 VICTORIA, A. 1901



From Lord Roberts to Col. Otter, Eestre Fabricken.
* C 4437. Many thanks for your very satisfactory reply. By all means give leave to one or two officers and few men whose cases are urgent to return at once,' About 9.30 p.m., of the same day (September 9) the following reached me from the O. C. L. of C. Pretoria-Middleburg.
MiDDLEBURG, 4.30 p.m., Sept. 9, 1900.

From Cd. Barker to 0. C Royal CanadianSy Eerste Fabricken,
* 416 War Office wires all men of Canadian regiment engaged to serve one year* whose services expire in October, and who do not voluntarily extend their services, are to be sent to Canada as soon as possible. Please ascertain and report to me by telegraph number of officers and number of men of your regiment who wish to proceed to Canada under this order, and, secondly, the number who desire to remain for further service in South Africa.



On Sept 11, I cabled jou the action I had taken in reply to Lord Roberts' request and asked if there were any orders, and to this received your reply on Sept. 18, that there was no objection to all, or part, of the battalion continuing its services. On Sept. 11 and 12, I received strong representations from the O. C, *C' *E'*F' *G', and * H ' Companies stationed at Silverton, Olifants river, and the Armoured train, that their men were decidedly adverse to prolonging their services and claimed their discharge in Canada at the end of the period of their enlistment.
In the face of such facts there seemed nothing left for me but to withdraw my telegram of Sept. 8 to Lord Roberts, which I accordingly did on Sept. 13 as given below: " Eerste Fabricken, Sept, 13, 1900.

From Lt.'Col, Otters Commanding Royal Canadian Regiment, to Lord Roberts, Com, Tiander-in-Chiefy Machadadorp " Referring to your C 4871 of 7th inst., regret to inform you that owing to fear of loss of employment, or business, the large majority of officers and men of Royal Canadian Regiment feel they cannot, with justice to themselves or families, re-engage for further service in this country, and desire their discharge in Canada on Oct. 15.




CANADIAN FORCES IN SOUTH AFRICA. p.29 (54)

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 35a next, in accordance with terms of enfi^ement, and I must therefore ask that such may be done if possible. In replying to your request on 8 th inst, I fear my own zeal led me to judge too hurriedly of that of my officers and men under the peculiar circumstances of their cases, and I deeply regret having misled you." On the same day I received the following: " Machadadorp, 9.50 p.m., Sept. 13, 1900.

From Lord Roberta to LL-CoI, Otter, Commanding R, C. Regiment "C 4593. I much regret the decision which the officers and men of the H. C. Regt. have come to. It is unlikely that their services would be required much longer, and their going away now will prevent them taking part in the annexation ceremony I hope to hold at Pretoria, and being present at the parade I understand Her Majesty contemplates honouring by her presence on the return of the troops that have taken part in this war. If on receipt of this you inform me that the officers and men still wish to return to Canada, the necessary transport arrangements will be made." This telegram I at once promulgated by wire to the different stations, asking for a reply as soon as possible, and by the 15th, I had received information from the several companies of their determination, which I chronicle below: " EersteFabricken I ,,-g,, c^' i^'J^i^,^ Mason!^ J will prolong servica. Unanimous desire to return ( to Canada. j Men will not enlist for longer ( service. | Ten men will prolong service, I Only three men will agree j to prolong their service. "



On September 15, I wired the Commander in Chief as under: " "Eestrb Fabricken, September 15, 1900.
"* Frmn Lt,-CoL Otter Commanding Royal Canadian Regiment to Lord Roberts, Machadar dorp." " Reply to your C 4593 of 13th inst., about 300 N.C.O. and men R. C. Regiment with proportion of Officers under my command will gladly prolong service till end of war. The remainder regret that for reasons already stated must ask for return to Canada in shortest time possible."

I should in connection with this last telegram state that A. "fe B. Co.'s. alone did not make up 300, but I did not think it advisable to include the N.C.O. and men of the Permanent Corps, or the draft, in the list of those returning, as their term of service did not expire for some time.

I should also report that many of the Officers belonging to the Companies returning to Canada wished to remain, but this I could not allow, as their services were required with those leaving South Africa, and there were not sufficient N.C.O. and men remaining to need them.

On September 16, I received the following telegram: " "Machadadorp, September 16, 1900." "* From Lord Roberts to Lt.-Col. Otter, Eerste Fabricken"

" C 4693, " I am very glad to see that 300 of the R. C. Regiment under your own command will continue service to end of war. Early arrangements will be made for.



THK U FR YR TME Mr. Mike.

Cheers

QSAMIKE wrote: Good Morning Spaniard......

According to the book "No Colours, No Drums" the History of the Canadians in the South African Constabulary, the contingent that sailed on the Mountfort on March 29th.....

And I quote from the book:

"In addition to Captain Fall, the South African Constabulary draft included 10 Captains, 18 Lieutenants,4 Warrant Officers and Staff Sergeants, 12 Squadron Sergeant Majors, 48 Acting Sergeants, 13 Trumpeters, 1120 Rank and File and 2 Nursing Sisters......" - "A number of Officers and Recruits did not sail on SS Montford. Several were in hospital at Ottawa and Halifax and Minto recommended that when they were fit that they be sent on via England....."

Mike

Buenos Dias, Mr. Mike, just clarifying, in "No Colours, No Drums," the total is 1120 + 2 Canadian nursing sisters?


In "painting the Map Red," by Miller p.368; 1248 Rank and file.
books.google.ca/books?id=6E1qI16qa1MC&pg...Constabulary&f=false

In, A Knight in Politics: A Biography of Sir Frederick Borden by Miller, p.155 states; 1200 all ranks.
books.google.ca/books?id=HSpZWPymsdsC&pg...Constabulary&f=false



LAC.
South African Constabulary
The South African Constabulary (SAC) was a force raised by the British to maintain order and security in the Orange River Colony and the Transvaal after hostilities ceased. In March 1901, 1,248 Canadians left for South Africa to serve in this unit. As those individuals were not recruited or paid by the Canadian government, few Canadian records exist concerning them. A nominal roll provides their SAC number, previous regiment and date of enlistment (Record Group 24, volume 6562, file HQ903-1).

The service files are in the custody of the National Archives of South Africa, at the following locations:

(Important note: We recommend that researchers contact both offices to request a search of their holdings.)

National Archives and Records Service of South Africa
www.national.archives.gov.za/

Head Office
Private Bag X236, Pretoria 0001
South Africa

www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-...uth-african-war.aspx



CWM:
In August 1900, two months after the fall of Pretoria, Major-General Robert Baden-Powell, famous as the leader of the besieged garrison of Mafeking, was appointed to raise and command the new force. In retrospect, British hopes that the 8,500-strong constabulary could assume responsibility for pacifying the countryside were hopelessly optimistic.(Note, depending on account, numbers range from 8,000 to 10,000).

While some members of the first and second contingents did transfer to theSAC, the bulk of the Canadians that served in the force - 30 officers and 1,208 other ranks - were enlisted in Canada in early 1901. Nearly three-quarters of the Canadian officers, and 100 of the men, had previous service in South Africa. Some members of later Canadian contingents also joined the force rather than return to Canada at the war's end. (Total 1238).

www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/boer/so...constabulary_e.shtml



Like I’ve been doing for over 3 ½ decades, just keeping record of deferent accounts in numbers, ect.


Cheers

Goo Morning Spaniard....

The author of the book spent nearly a year going through all the enlistment documents in SA to find all the people who had registered as Canadians.....

My total is 1227 all ranks, don't also forget the number that joined later......

Mike