TOPIC:

I have come across a family connection to a certain Thomas Castle who was Private 4175 in the 2nd Dragoon Guards. I have found the QSA Medal Roll which shows he was entitled to 5 Clasps - see image below.

I am interested in trying to understand the various remarks against his record in the two extreme columns.

On the left I believe it states that his 5 Clasps were returned and there is a date of 05/03/1914. What does this mean? I see the same remark and date is given against a few of his fellow soldiers - one is even visible lower down in the image shown below.

One the right is some remarks which I think means he was with the 4th Provisional Regiment of Dragoons for transfer to the Army Reserve. I assume he was with them on the date the Roll was complied. Is that correct? Can anyone tell me what the typical or nominally normal procedure would be for transfer to the Reserve and what was the 4th Prov R?

I think his service number of 4175 puts his enlistment in January 1893 and I assume he enlisted on terms that were 7 years with the Colours and 5 with the Reserve.

Regards

Russ

Russ,

Welcome to the forum.

It could be that the clasps were issued separately to the medal. This sometimes happened but not frequently to Imperial troops. As he had moved to the Army Reserve by then it appears the authorities had difficulty contacting him and finally returned the clasps to the Mint. Having waiting for a long time, the authorities would have returned all the clasps in one go.

I am not sure what the PR in 4th Dragoons means.

Best wishes
David

Hello Russ
Is it possible you could provide a date of birth and where Thomas might have been born?
This sometimes helps with searching for military records.
His service number does suggest he joined circa 1893. The 2nd Dragoon Guards arrived in South Africa in December 1901. If he served his full 12 years he would have been discharged around 1905. He may have been entitled to a pension. If you could provide any more clues regarding Thomas,the forum may be able to find out more details.



Dave........

djb wrote: Russ,

Welcome to the forum.

It could be that the clasps were issued separately to the medal. This sometimes happened but not frequently to Imperial troops. As he had moved to the Army Reserve by then it appears the authorities had difficulty contacting him and finally returned the clasps to the Mint. Having waiting for a long time, the authorities would have returned all the clasps in one go.

I am not sure what the PR in 4th Dragoons means.

Best wishes
David

Thank you for your reply David.

The QSA Medal Roll that he is on was compiled on 16/08/1902 whereas the Roll for the Clasps he is on which I posted above is dated 21/02/1903 - so it seems they were indeed issued separately. I take it that was the norm - Medal first then sort out the clasps later.

But the way I am reading the Rolls is that he was with the 4th Pro R of Drgs at the time, so I don't understand how they didn't know where he was. Although by the time the clasps were physically posted out, he might well have been in the Reserve at an address they couldn't trace.

By the way, in my opening post I had written out in full what I believe to be the unit he was in at the time of the compilation of the Rolls - the 4th Provisional Regiment of Dragoons - my sub question centred more on what sort of unit was that? Why would he be transferred from the 2nd Dragoon Guards to the 4th Provisional Regiment of Guards before being transferred to the Army Reserve?

I hope my questions are ,making some sense !!

Regards

Russ

Dave F wrote: Hello Russ
Is it possible you could provide a date of birth and where Thomas might have been born?
This sometimes helps with searching for military records.
His service number does suggest he joined circa 1893. The 2nd Dragoon Guards arrived in South Africa in December 1901. If he served his full 12 years he would have been discharged around 1905. He may have been entitled to a pension. If you could provide any more clues regarding Thomas,the forum may be able to find out more details.



Dave........

Dave - thanks for your reply.

Do Service Records survive for Boer War soldiers? If so, where can I find them?

I have him on the 1901 Census (compiled 31/03/1901) with his unit, 2nd Dragoon Guards, in Barracks at Aldershot. He is recorded as being 28 years old, married and born in Nelthorpe, Oxon. I can't find a Nelthorpe anywhere !

I have found his wife living in accommodation in Aldershot

In the 1911 Census I have him living in Middlesbrough as a Tram Driver. He is recorded as being 35 years old (re 28 in 1901 !!) and born in Banbury, Oxfordshire. His wife is the same lady I found in the 1901 census in Aldershot, so these are the same man.

I'm not sure I can piece his Service History quite together........

Joined Jan 1893 for 7+5 - deduced from his number 4175 - assuming he joined the 2/DG direct rather than being transferred from a different unit enlisted into at an earlier date.

Seven years take us to Jan 1900 but given the SA war I assume he was retained for an 8th year. Takes it to Jan 1901 but he is evidently off to SA in Dec 1901 with the 2/DG - so he must have stayed on further? Is that possible/likely?

The Rolls are compiled 08/1902 (medal) and 02/1903 (claps) and he is with the 4th Provisional Regiment of Dragoons for both Rolls - so he has still not yet transferred to the Reserves it seems. Either way, I assume he was indeed discharged in 1905.

I have him joining the Military Mounted Police (MMP) late 1914, with the BEF in Sept 1915 but discharged Dec 1915 - I can find no WW1 service records for him. This information comes from a WW1 Pension Index Card. I understand many MMPs were ex Cavalry men with, I assume, blemish free records !

Anything you or others can add would be much appreciated.

Regards

Russ

Russ

Some records are available on Ancestry and FMP, Imperial Yeomanry are well recorded. The National Archives hold many records. WW1 pension records can sometimes lead you to attestation papers to a soldier who served in the Boer war through Fold3.

I think his birth place may have been Neithrop, Banbury Oxford.

Interestingly,  I found a Thomas Castle 40 and Hannah Castle 39 in the 1911 census who were both born in Neithrop. Alas their ages do not fit your man. I'm guessing your Thomas was married to Eliza Gertrude? who resided at the Strangward household 29 Alexander Road Aldershot. Working in the Tailor industry.

I will keep looking for a WW1 connection, I found the pension card details ref MMP. Will have a trawl through the pension entitlement and the MMP lead when time permits.

With regard to Thomas's Boer war history, if you have no luck with the usual sources you could contact the National Army Museum for guidance.


David covered the reason for clasps being returned. Possible move to Middlesbrough could have impacted on finding Thomas.

As for the 4th Battalion Dragoon Provisional battalions .
I think I read somewhere during 1901 to 1902 that regular soldiers  who had been replaced or were transferred to the reserves and some who were deemed medically unfit, were formed into certain categories, and were transferred into Provisional Battalions. Later, if fitness returned and these soldiers were deemed fit to serve at home or abroad they were used to supply drafts to replace future casualties. I believe this practice was carried into the WW1 battalions.

I wish you well in your quest.  I will of course post details if I find anything that is relevant to Thomas's military career.

Best wishes

Dave........